Monday, May 27, 2019

6-Day War - Not a Miracle

"I was surprised that Nasser decided to place his troops so close to our border. He must have known the grave danger into which he placed his forces. Having the Egyptian army so close allowed us to strike and destroy at any time we wished to do so, and there was not a single knowledgeable person who did not see that. From a military standpoint, it was not the IDF that was in danger when the Egyptian army amassed troops on the Israeli border, but the Egyptian army." Israeli General Matti Peled, in the high command during the Six-day War in  Peled, Miko. General's Son: Journey of an Israeli in Palestine (pp. 67-68). Just World Books. Kindle Edition.

“The armies were extremely ill-matched. Israelis, through their history, have tended to see themselves as the “weaker side,” their army smaller and less well armed than their Arab enemies. The truth in 1967, as at other times, was different.” Benny Morris, Righteous Victims, p. 311. Benny Morris is one of Israel’s most prominent historians

“American intelligence accurately predicted that Israel would defeat any possible Arab coalition within a few days, perhaps a week….” p. 310

“The Arab armies were mostly professional forces, relatively poorly trained, and not properly mechanized. The Egyptian army suffered from a basic weakness owing to the politicization of its command echelons, which resulted in the appointment of incompetent and inexperienced senior commanders, and structural weaknesses that were to prove fatal in wartime.” p. 312

“The Six-Day War was in all essentials, a clockwork war carried out by the IDF against three relatively passive, ineffective Arab Armies….Throughout, the initiative lay with the IDF; occasionally the Arabs ‘responded’ to an Israeli move; most often they served as rather bewildered, sluggish, punching bags.” p. 313

And the Satmar Rebbe knew it all along:

Satmar Rebbe(Divrei Yoel Behaloscha page 304): Would you even imagine that there would be empty headed fools that while they call themselves religious but the smell of heresy wafts from their mouths and they fool the whole world with their announcements about miracles [during the Six Day War] – G‑d save us. If in fact these were miracles it would have been much worse. That is because there is bitter retribution to the Jewish people when G-d does miracles from the aspect of evil as the Maharal mentioned before stated. However in truth there were no miracles here at all [concerning the Six Day War]. It was simply a natural occurrence as can readily be seen from the discussions in the newspapers that it was assumed that [Israel] would be victorious. I have already stated that I am fearful – G‑d forbid – for the time when actual miracles are done for them. If at this time when in truth there were no miracles and yet this great evil befell them, then surely if there had been miracles done for them that it would have brought about severe suffering as we mentioned above. From this we see the extreme degree of their cruelty and evil. That even though it was reasonable that [Israel] was going to win the war, nevertheless the Jewish people were in great danger. Nevertheless they placed the Jewish people in this danger for the sake of their glory and for the sake of their governing. Because it was obvious to those with understanding that [Israel] had the ability to completely prevent the war. There were a number of alternatives and circumstances regarding preventing the war, but this is not the place to go into detail. Nevertheless someone who has eyes will see that there is no doubt about this. In fact it was the filth of heresy that blinded their eyes and made them act in an irresponsible and irrational manner.

26 comments:

  1. Just a suggestion: maybe you should change the name of your blog to Torah Im Satmar Hashkafah, I.E. TISH Society. :-)

    I tend to agree with you on this one; seems like there is evidence that military experts predicted an Israeli victory. But your general views on the Israeli government have nothing to do with R' Hirsch; we just don't know what he would say in the current situation. Your connecting his views with Satmar, Neturai Karta, and lehavdil Leftists is appalling misrepresentation.

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    1. Rav Hirsch was anti-Zionist in principle. He held of the three oaths. To elaborate on the illness that is Zionism is in keeping with his philosophy as Zionism is destroying the Jewish people.

      “When, during the reign of Hadrian, the uprising led by Bar Kochba proved a disastrous error, it became essential that the Jewish people be reminded for all times of another important fact; namely, that Israel must never again attempt to restore its national independence by its own power; it was to entrust its future as a nation solely to Divine Providence. Therefore when the nation, crushed by this new blow, had recovered its breath and hailed even the permission to give a decent burial to the hundreds of thousands who had fallen about Betar as the dawn of a better day, the sages who met at Yavneh added yet another blessing to the prayer for the restoration of Jerusalem. This fourth blessing is an acknowledgement that it has always been G-d and G-d alone Who has given us, and still gives us to this very day, that good in which we have had cause to rejoice; and that for future good, too, we may look to none other but G-d, and none besides Him."

      R' Samson Raphael Hirsch, Commentary to the Prayer Book, p. 703

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    2. Avi you appear to be one of those people that blames all the woes of life on the lefties, in other words, the other side. Not worth my time to defend them; although I don't like your oversimplification and egotism (you side is wonderful like you no?). Regardless, I am a Hirschian. He said this: "Excerpt from paragraph 608:

      It obliges us, further, to allow our longing for the far-offland to express itself only in mourning, in wishing and hoping; and only through the honest fulfilment of all Jewish duties to await the realization of this hope. But it forbids us to strive for the reunion or the possession of the land by any but spiritual means.'

      Paragraph 608 in full:

      When Israel was still united in a common land they did not call themselves Am, one people, for the reason that one common soil bore them all. For, alone among all the peoples of the earth, the possession of the land and the ensuing organization of the State was for Israel not an end but a means to the better fulfilment of their Jewish duties. The Torah did not exist for the State, but the State for the Torah. And only the Torah, the idea of being joint bearers of a spiritual calling, fused the individuals into an association of human beings whose inner cohesiveness is reflected in the term (literally, society) and whose character in the wider sense as a nation is designated by the term גוי that is to say, a corporate body or a people.

      And even later on, far away from her land, when Israel sees her visible bonds of nationhood broken, the dispersed Jews call themselves Am, one nation, not in remembrance of a land once jointly possessed, not looking towards the future when God, as His words through the prophets teach us, will once more have united them, but in the consciousness of being, in the present as in the past, bearers of an eternal idea, an eternal mission, and of a God-given destiny which, in Israel, overshadowed, and still overshadows, the existence of the State, and which therefore has survived the State's downfall. We mourn over the sin which brought about that downfall, we take to heart the harshness which we have encountered in our years of wandering as the chastisement of a father imposed on us for our improvement, and we mourn the lack of observance of the Torah which that ruin has brought about. Not in order to shine as a nation among nations do we raise our prayers and hopes for a reunion in our land, but in order to find a soil for the better fulfilment of our spiritual vocation in that reunion and in the land which was promised, and given, and again promised for our observance of the Torah. But this very vocation obliges us, until God shall call us back to the Holy Land, to live and to work as patriots wherever He has placed us, to collect all the physical, material and spiritual forces and all that is noble in Israel to further the weal of the nations which have given us shelter. It obliges us, further, to allow our longing for the far-offland to express itself only in mourning, in wishing and hoping; and only through the honest fulfilment of all Jewish duties to await the realization of this hope. But it forbids us to strive for the reunion or the possession of the land by any but spiritual means.' Our Sages say God imposed three vows when He sent Israel into the wilderness: (I) that the children ofIsrael shall never seek to re-establish their nation by themselves; (2) that they shall never be disloyal to the, nations which have given them shelter; (3) that these nations shall not oppress them excessively (Kethuboth, III, I). The fulfilment of the first two vows is confirmed in the pages of history; about the third, the nations concerned must judge themselves."

      R' SR Hirsch, Horeb 608

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  2. Can you also respond to this?

    http://tidesociety.blogspot.com/2019/05/the-former-minister-of-defense-strikes.html?m=1

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  3. R' Hirsch opposed mass settlement of Palestine, based on Talmudic sources, at a time when it was not at all clear that mass immigration to Palestine would save lives. And R' Hirsch opposed staying in a Reform kehilla when there was the ability to leave it; but when Jewish lives were on the line in Russia, he cooperated with non-Orthodox organizations in order to save them.

    Today, Leftists and radical Islamists are doing everything they can to destroy the Israeli government; and if they are successful, it would probably lead to a Holocaust. I think it's reasonable to speculate that in this situation, he would advocate cooperating with a non-Orthodox organization, i.e. the Israeli government, in order to save lives. It's hard for me to believe that he would join with Leftists in tearing down the Israeli government, as has been one of the main thrusts of this blog. (You have passed the point where you could claim that your comments are legitimate, constructive criticism meant to help the Israeli government improve; you blast the Israeli government using the same double-standards as Leftists who are intent on destroying Israel.)

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    1. What is destroying the State of Israel is sin, and the right wing is as guilty as that of the left.

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  4. Israel, your comments contain enough straw men for at least a football team. And I plead guilty to egotism; I have my struggles with different forms of gaavah, just like everyone else.

    I apologize if I aggravated you; I will try to avoid this in the future, to whatever degree possible. But your connecting Rav Hirsch with the same double-standard arguments made by those who want to destroy the Israeli government and cause a Holocaust, is deeply painful to me.
    I feel like someone must protest this, so that no one thinks that Hirschians believe this. Do you know of any who do, and who approve of these posts?

    Interesting quote from Choreiv. Is it possible that the UN vote in 1948 to recognize Israel was the nations a.judging themselves as excessive oppressors,and b.releasing the Jews from their end of the deal?

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    1. You seem to me to be lost in Zionism. You spout cliches like "enemies of the state" and talk about those who want Holocausts. That's crazy talk you realize. It's nuts. Who is trying to destroy the Israeli government or state amongst Jews? And who even wants to amongst Jews? I know a few individuals who want to see a normal democratic state of the residents of the land rather than this state for one segment of the people thing. But they don't do anything about it. And that doesn't mean they want to destroy anything. They just don't like the current setup And those are a handful of people. The Satmar Rebbe didn't talk like that. He said that was foolish talk to say the Arabs should take over. Most on the left want a two state solution. You want to say that's suicide? OK, you can say that. It's also suicide for 6 million people to police 6 million people. The Torah says not to provoke the goyim. That always ends bad. And that's what the right wing does every day. Lieberman even threatens Russia. Mr. Tough guy is taking on Russia. Tlak about suicidal. Either way is a mess because the idea of Zionism is a mess. Hirsch was opposed to Zionism. His quotes on the matter are abundant and appear throughout his life. You cannot rebel against the nations, cannot rush the redemption, cannot force your way back into the land. The UN vote was full of bribery and death threats. It hardly qualifies to address the Three Oaths. The vote was only a recommendation. The Arab nations voted against it and they are the most important votes since EY is Arab country in our times. And the UK, which ruled the land, didn't vote. It also said it would not abide by the recommendation if the rights of the Arabs were violated. Not only that, but the UK asked the UN to make a recommendation after it tired of Lechi and Irgun terrorism. Remember, you are not supposed to take the land by force. Terrorism is force. Avi, your most passionate concerns should be God, Torah, and klal Yisroel, not a secular state, not neocon politics. The state was founded by atheists and the people in charge today are bad news as they always have been. The state is a source of constant chillul Hashem. Over 1 million abortions have been performed there. There's your holocaust.

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  5. Please focus specifically on this question, and please respond to it specifically: who are the real Hirschians who agree with your posts?

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    1. Is this an interrogation? I get emails from people. But in general you should know R' Schwab was anti-Zionist: “...truth compels us to state unequivocally that most certainly Zionism is not at all identical with Judaism that in fact it is diametrically opposed to it.” "Zion is the dwelling place of G-d’s glory. רחם על
      ציון כי היא בית חיינו Zion is the house of our life – Zion is the citadel of G-d, promised us by the Creator, for which we long in our daily prayers and which has never ceased to belong to us. Zion is the Sanctuary of the Torah, the holy city which surrounds it, the holy land of which it is its eternal capital, the Jewish nation which owns it since ever and forever – the abode of the Shechina on earth, from which the word of G-d shall come forth and over which a new light will shine – the Zion of David and Shlomoh, the Zion of our Prophets and Sages and singers and mourners and lovers – all this is very opposite of Zionism. No! A thousand times no! We love Zion and therefore we are non-Zionists."

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  6. So the answer to "who are the real Hirschians who agree with your posts?" is: none.

    All Hirschians are against any form of non-Torah Jewish nationalism. We are all against lack of Torah observance (on the Right) and hatred of Torah (on the Left). But all of us "fake" Hirschians have the good sense to realize that this doesn't mean that we add our voice to the propaganda war designed to to degrade the one force al pi derech hateva that is holding back radical Moslems who want to destroy us---the Israeli government/ IDF.

    If you would preface your criticisms with "I know that every society has problem X; but I expect more from Jews" that would be one thing. But you blast secular Israelis as if they invented, say, police brutality or accidental killing of civilians during a war. That my friend, is a (hidden) double standard, used by vicious Jew haters the world over.

    Do you think you honor Rav Hirsch by connecting him with this?

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    1. Rav Schwab isn't good enough for you? How about Rav Breuer: “As we look back today, it was more than one hundred years ago that European Jewry also faced a trying time. A generation filled with human kindness sought to make good on crimes committed in past centuries against the Jewish people, and opened the gates of emancipation into European culture for our people — which had abundantly clear consequences. Spokesmen for emancipation were leaders of the so-called Reform movement, resulting inevitably in total estrangement and mass baptism. God’s eternal wisdom has always shown that assimilation would lead to a rekindling of anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism led to the Zionist movement, which hung a different flag on assimilation and guided it on a no less ill-fated, completely un-Jewish direction.” — R’ Joseph Breuer, “At the End of the Year,” Mitteilungen, Vol. 2, September 1940 in A Unique Perspective, Rav Breuer’s Essays, pp. 291-2.

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    2. Zionists did invent terrorism. Did you know that? Professor Benny Morris: “the dissident right-wing organizations, the IZL and the LHI, introduced into the arena (in 1937-38 and 1947-48) what is now the standard equipment of modern terrorism, the camouflaged bomb in the market place and bus station, the car- and truck-bomb, and the drive-by shooting with automatic weapons (though not the suicide bomber, which was an Arab innovation of the 1980s and 1990s).”

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    3. I looked back on the posts. I have one post over the last few months where I complain about the police beating up an autistic Charedi boy. And you can't handle that. Somehow that becomes I'm saying they are all bad and they invented police brutality. I think your mind is lazy and your god is the state, so nobody can question your god. And your compassion for the boy? didn't hear any evidence of that. Are you evil?

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  7. My last post was premature on whether any real Hirschians support you; I take it back. Can you ask R' Avi Shafran, R' Adlerstein, R' Y. G. Bechhofer, or R' Hirsch's descendants who publish his seforim, whether they approve of your posts? Maybe they would even guest-post?

    If any one of these people agreed with you, I would seriously reconsider my position (and would possibly have to acknowledge that I'm not a Hirschian.)

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    1. Those are all Modern Orthodox people. They are the fake Hirschians that Rav Breuer and Rav Elias and the KAJ community in Washington Heights complain about. They are not the representatives of Torah Im Derech Eretz. Adlerstein defends Slifkin for goodness sake. Hirsch called Evolution a vague theory still supported by fact. Shafran has a column at Aish and Aish is crammed packed with so much feminism, Zionism, celebrity worship, new ageism and a 100 kinds of other filth that it's to the left of YU. It celebrates Yom Atzlut with joy. Bechhofer goes against all the gadolim in calling for National Service of Charedim. All you are telling me is that you are Modern Orthodox and these are the kind of people you like. How about we go with Hirsch biographer R' Eliyahu Klugman. He said this:

      "Yet, after all has been said, Medinas Yisroel is a modern, secular, parliamentary state. Clearly, it is not the Jewish state projected by our prophets, for which we have been taught to yearn (as Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch so lucidly explains) and that would express our national identity as the Am HaTorah and the beginnings of the Messianic Redemption.

      "It follows from Rav Hirsch's teachings then, that we cannot embrace it in its current form with any enthusiasm. Rather it can be viewed only as a political fact and we must work within it to further the true interests of the Jewish people, the Am HaTorah, as we would in any political setting in which we find ourselves-- but we cannot recognize it as an expression of the Jewish national identity and the coming of Moshiach."

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    2. Precisely my view! No enthusiasm. Israel is just a political fact; we work within it to further the true interests of the Jewish people.

      He did NOT say "blast those evil Zionists, shout to the world how violent and militaristic their society is; why, they have some evil cops! And a military that has some evil soldiers! And they sometimes miss their targets during wartime and kill civilians!".

      No. Rav Schwab and R' Breuer blasted Zionism as an ideology. But they did not join with our enemies' Jew-hating propaganda, which is designed to degrade Jewish efforts at self-defense by making Israelis look like Nazis. You have put this approach in their mouths, and in the mouth of R' Hirsch.

      I just pray for your sake that this blog does not succeed in inflencing too many people with this false approach. Because if it does, you will certainly have to give din vicheshbon as to why you helped spread our worst enemies' propaganda, and why you falsified the Torah of these Tzadikim.

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    3. Just to clarify: these TIDE Gedolim did NOT criticize Zionists by saying that Zionists have fallen below the world's standards for human rights, for the simple reason that this is FALSE: Israel, despite its flaws, is among the best of nations when it comes to human rights, way ahead of any Moslem, Communist, or other dictatorship, and no worse than the other democracies.

      They criticized Zionists for LOWERING our standards, for wanting to be just another nation among nations, instead of being a chosen, Torah nation that would be a moral "light to the Nations".

      If the tone of your criticisms were along these lines, I would applaud you. But your tone is more along the lines of "evil Zionists, human rights violators, violent, overly militaristic", etc., bad even by world standards, which plays right into the hands of those who portray Israelis as Nazis.

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  8. “Benny Morris on “A New Look at the 1948 Arab-Israeli War,” Wilson Center, 43:15

    “The war was definitely not a jihad or a religious war on the Israeli side. On the Israeli side, the Jewish population in Palestine, the yishuv, was 90% secular at the time. And the leadership of the yishuv was almost totally secular. The military leadership, the political leadership. It was a very secular society. You get an optical illusion when you look back from 2016 when Israel has become much more religious or a larger part, segment of its population is religious. But in 1948 the people who counted and actually the vast majority of the population was of course non-religious. In fact they were children, or actually the people themselves, who had rebelled against religion. This is what Zionism was all about, partly, against rebelling against the old world of their fathers, which was a religious world. They rebelled also against God. So they didn’t approach the war at all as a religious war, not the generals, not the politicians, not Ben-Gurion, not Sharet, not Allon, not Dayan. They were irreligious people, maybe even they were anti-religious, so the religious people saw them.”

    so the people you identify with were anti-religious, rebels against tradition and God. And you can't understand, can't grasp why anybody would protest this. I have a friend who is an Israeli atheist. I know lots of Israelis like that. He is what he is and he lets me be me. You, probably because you sense there is a conflict in your values, can't handle any criticisms of the secular state. But it's your problem and you should keep it to yourself.

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  9. "I was surprised that Nasser decided to place his troops so close to our border. He must have known the grave danger into which he placed his forces. Having the Egyptian army so close allowed us to strike and destroy at any time we wished to do so, and there was not a single knowledgeable person who did not see that."

    So perhaps that was the precisely the great miracle (or one of the miracles), that Nasser did such a foolish thing!

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    1. A miracle is a supernatural event. Nasser's move was very natural for an Arab leader. They tend toward bravado and posturing.

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  10. With your approach, perhaps you should not say in modim, in davening, ועל נסיך שבכל יום עמנו, after all, the workings of the body are natural".

    Tis easy to be a Monday morning quarterback and make everything out to be so easy and simple so many years later.

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    1. That's how history is analyzed, looking back. But they use documentation. Calling the wars miracles is also arm chair quarterback. What you are saying is one is never allowed to consider history. What you shouldn't do is look back in ignorance. But Benny Morris is far from ignorant. He's an expert.

      The workings of the body are natural. Miracle means above nature. Nature is an incredible creation of Hashem but you don't call it a miracle. The Zioonists have cheapened the word. That's why we are not supposed to say Hallel every day because Hallel concerns the supernatural and Pizukei d'zimra concerns the natural that Hashem made, for which we should be thankful. And if you say Hallel every day, you are discounting what Hashem did with nature. But you don't call nature a miracle in the regular sense of the term. The reason Zionists want to call the wars miracles is to say that Hashem wants the state. But the wars weren't miracles. Besides, even that wouldn't really prove Hashem's approval of the state because we know from the Torah we are not supposed to have secular government nor are we to ascend to the land en mass using violent methods to seize it in rebellion against the gentiles.

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  11. https://www.feldheim.com/the-28th-of-iyar.html

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    1. Likely not relevant for assessing the overall military situation. It's personal accounts. He'll probably say in there the usual, "7 arab armies invaded" and readers will just buy it, not knowing it was a small amount of soldiers from each nation and they were ill-equipped etc.

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