The New Historians are a group of Israeli historians that emerged in the 1980s and worked largely from newly released archival documentation on the 1947-8 wars. As a group they debunked many of our self-serving notions of "purity of arms" and how holy and perfect the Zionist militias were at that time. This is not to say that they necessarily put forth the opposite view. For example, Benny Morris noted famously that the Zionist militias did engage in massacres and even rapes but the numbers aren't off the charts. They don't compare to Bosnia or Stalingrad or anything remotely on that scale. For Jews, it's pretty bad and unacceptable and greatly damages the notion that the founding of the state represented any kind of national redemption. But on the other hand, it doesn't put the state's crimes on the level of the worst on earth. And he points out as well that little of it was premeditated. Most emerged in the heat of battle in a war that he believes the local Arabs started. I think it's a bit complicated as the Zionist terrorist groups were doing an incredible amount of provocation. But that's a long discussion.
Some of the other new historians like Elan Pappe speak much more harshly about the Zionist political enterprise, that it's nothing other than colonialism. In my view, Benny Morris is the most objective and fact based of the group.
Anyway, comes along Efraim Karsh. He has worked in the period of the opened archives (note 90 plus percent of archives are still closed). Yet, he is very critical of the new historians. He argues that many distort the records to paint Israel as nothing other than an oppressor. He also is worth reading and listening to. What I like about Karsh is that he speaks calmly, rationally, and factually when defending Israel vis a vis the Arabs. He is not hysterical, shaming, or doctrinaire. Here are some interviews of him, Benny Morris, Avi Shlaim, and Ilan Pappe.
How have 'New Historians' distorted the Israel-Palestinian conflict? - Historian Efraim Karsh
Benny Morris ─ The Creation of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949
Avi Shlaim: Britain and Palestine: From Balfour to May
On 1948 | Ilan Pappe | Part I | *NEW* 2018 interview
Who is right? So hard to know. But it's better to not know in an informed way than an ignorant one. And more knowledge tends to lead us to the state of knowing that we don't know, which is the proper place to be in many cases in life.
Objectivity in history is important, no doubt about it.
ReplyDeleteNo one condones atrocities. But if it is true that the Zionist groups and the Israeli army have committed LESS per capita atrocities than other countries at war, wouldn't that still make them one of the world's most humane armies?
But I'm curious: what is your end goal here for the CURRENT situation?
Would you be happy, for example, if the Israeli government and army disbanded, and handed over control of all of Israel to the Palestinian Authority? Do you think that the Jews who currently live in Israel would be allowed to emigrate en masse to other countries? Do you think that if they lived under Palestinian Authority control, that there would be no second Holocaust, despite what Palestinian leaders have been saying repeatedly for decades?
The Left tends to want to destroy the governments and institutions (mostly Israel and the U.S.) in place currently; but I never hear them talk about what would happen once they were destroyed. Do they think Utopia would spontaneously break out? That suddenly human beings would live in harmony, and live by "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs"?
So it's only fair to ask: if you succeed in your crusade to bring down the Zionist government and army, what do you think would happen next?
My personal belief at this point is that it was a pikuach nefesh to start the state and it would be a pikuach nefesh to end. I don't know if Pal. leadership would mean a holocaust - my, is that term overused. But it would probably be like South Africa which is a very unsafe, poorly led place as I understand it. Thus we must move forward and make Israel better. Try to bring people to Hashem. But we can't get there without criticizing Zionism.
DeleteAs for the most moral army stuff, you aren't the most moral army just because you are better than Stalin's army. The claim of most moral army is ridiculous in part because know body knows how say Norway would act in this situation and it makes us look as if we live in a self worshiping fantasy land. I tend to doubt that Norway would drop millions of cluster bomblets on Lebanon after hostilities had ceased. Is Israel the worst? It's not even nearly as bad as America. But it has enough sins on its hands that it best refrain from boasting so much.
how can the left try to destroy governments and at the same time be the ones who promote government?
DeleteZionism in the past did pull Jews away from the Torah. But it's probably been 50 or more years since Zionisn has had that kind of magnetic pull; how many cases have there been recently of Jews who could honestly cite Zionism as a reason for why they left the Torah, or why they are not more Torah observant? Do kiruv organizations have to talk people out of being Zionists before they can convince them to be more Torah observant?
ReplyDeleteNo. They do, however, have to talk them out of immoral hedonism, which results from moral relativism/ nihilism, which often results from atheism. Who is pushing moral relativism/ nihilism and atheism? The Leftists. Instead òf fighting the enemy in an old derech eretz, we should be fighting the enemy in the CURRENT derech eretz.
All nations at war have committed atrocities, without exception. So it comes down to which ones have minimized atrocities. How many nations at war (past and present) have done better than America and Israel at minimizing atrocities? How many have warned civilians to leave areas they plan to bomb? How many have provided medical care to injured soldiers from the enemy's civil war? How many have poured millions into building up their enemies economically after conquering them?
Again, you compare Israel and America to Utopia, where there are never any acts of violence committed;which is WONDERFUL.
The only problem is that Utopia doesn't exist.
That's another mizrachi myth that the zionists used to be anti-religious but have changed. The only thing that's changed is that the Charedim are a big enough force that the zionists have to work with them a little. Witness these comments from the current PM: “The best answer to anti-Semitism is the State of Israel and the Israel Defense Forces. Once we were a leaf driven by the wind; they could slaughter us. Today, we have the power to respond.” PUre heresey. Anti-Torah sentiments are institutionalized now. The Zionists don't have to talk about them as much. The society takes care of it.
DeleteDo you think that these types of heretical comments by the PM and his party are what keeps Jews from being more Torah observant? Is this what kiruv people have to contend with? Or is it the hedonism/ nihilism/ moral relativism/ atheism that the Left is pushing?
ReplyDeleteMy friend, you are fighting the last war, not the current one.
I'm curious--you cited Chomsky somewhat approvingly in a prior post. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Chomsky has opinions that Torah-true Jews would find abhorrent. Does this bother you at least as much as the PM's comments?
i wouldn't listen to chomsky on religion, i will consider chomsky on politics and linguistics
Deletebut the PM keeps telling us he is the leader of the jewish people so his apikorsis is a problem for all of us
Deletei wouldn't say i approve of chomsky, i believe he deserves a listen since he's the world's leading public intellectual or something like that
ReplyDelete